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sometimes people say to me pastor Jeff

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how do you know there's a god and I say

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it's simple math God either exists or he

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doesn't so let's be cynical

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worst case scenario there's a 50/50

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chance and I like those odds that's

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wrong that's a clip from young Sheldon a

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TV show about a Brainiac kid who likes

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to tell adults all stupid they are and

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how smart he is for following science

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and logic you've confused possibilities

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with probabilities according to your

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analogy when I go home I might find a

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million dollars on my bed or I might not

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and what universe is that 5050 now if

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you've listened to this show very much

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you know that the science versus

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religion debate non debate is an itch

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that I just can't resist scratching and

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when I say is Christianity worth saving

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why is it necessary I mean it's really

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cool that if you travel to a foreign

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country and get really sick that you

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have a network that you can tie into

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that's awesome on a practical level but

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on a spiritual level if that is based on

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some things that are not true in the way

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that we normally think about things

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being true have you kind of made some

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compromises there that may inhibit your

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spiritual growth I struggled with that

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question like oh yeah why don't I study

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Sufi ism or pick up Zen Buddhism Beth

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Bryan to shade from the Bad Venice

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podcast Brad's a young guy in his early

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20s who joined me today to rehash these

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questions about Christianity and about

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whether regardless of whether or not it

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can hold up to the scrutiny of young

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Sheldon it might still offer a language

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with which to access the very real

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scientifically established realms of

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extended consciousness the answer that I

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came up with because the Christian

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language that I grew up with is the most

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accessible language for me to interact

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with the spiritual stick around my

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interview with Brian and Anthony from

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the Bad Venice podcast is coming up on

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skeptic Oh

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today we welcome Brian and Anthony from

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the Bad Venice podcast two young guys

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who are really blazing a new trail in

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the progressive Christian movement and

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that brand a few months ago and he

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helped me out a great deal with some

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skeptical projects and then I was super

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excited to hear that he had started his

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own podcast and along with Anthony I

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listened to a couple of them and I

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thought they were so relevant to some of

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the topics that I've been haranguing

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people about lately

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that I really wanted to have these guys

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on we had a little pre-interview chat

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and that went great so I'm excited to

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have both of you guys here thanks for

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joining me on skeptic oh thanks so much

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for having us in our cartoonishly large

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headphones yeah thank you very much is

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quite an honor

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Wow honor jeez great well I tell you

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what I don't know about that well we'll

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see how we all feel at the end but I do

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say I really did enjoy the Bad Venice

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the episodes that I've listened to I

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think you guys have a great vibe and a

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great way of working together and I

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think you're you you have a fresh

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approach to these topics so let's start

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just tell folks a little bit each one of

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you about who you are and how you came

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to do this podcast maybe so we both grew

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up in the seventh-day Adventist Church

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was which is in a very American

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Protestant conservative denomination and

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it kind of it's an institution that

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raised us I grew up going to private

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Christian school Adventist academies and

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so the simply Adventist Church pretty

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much raised us Anthony's family

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converted when he was very young I come

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from like a very like diverse at the

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ethnically diverse background and so I

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feel like I'm more Adventist than I am

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any of my respective Heritage's and so

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we met um in college he graduated the

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year I started going to a PC Berkeley

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and we met each other at the church

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there

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and it's a lovely little hub of like

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very liberal people in a very

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conservative wave Enclave yeah yeah and

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it seems kind of like a surreal place

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because like Brian mentioned we are very

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well the combination is very

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conservative almost laughingly so and

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the Berkeley Enclave the Berkeley group

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is so diverse so progressive so exciting

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and to talk to but to be around and

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they're in my opinion we're all very

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sincere advant is that we really want to

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be Adventist

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and by anyone else's metric by the

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church's own metric I don't think we'd

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we make the cut yeah and then we've

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decided to sort of amend the metric and

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just okay we're bad with us and these

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are topics and issues that we talk about

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normally and so we just decided let's uh

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put turn on the microphone and try to

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find other people like us and in doing

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so I think Brian and I I sort of had a

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flesh out kind of what we believe and

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kind of what our journeys have been and

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sometimes we disagree as we're surprised

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by the fighting we disagree sometimes we

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don't disagree sail yeah yeah it's been

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an interesting journey mm-hmm and we're

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also technically uh funded right I don't

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know how Brian hoodwinked the conference

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yeah we have like a small stipend from

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the church for this and the running joke

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is how long can we go on until we lose I

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mean it's yeah but it's this because

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they've sort of embraced us I was like

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oh you guys are really cool and like you

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provide a space you provide a space or

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on people to question or doubt without

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leaving so they're very concerned about

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retention especially of Millennials and

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I don't think they know how to talk to

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my and Sutherland and I don't know how

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much we actually talk to them but we do

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compared to you know the other Adventist

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podcast I do

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that were honest and refresh and we're

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not just trying to rehash church policy

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in with young faces yeah I'm certainly

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not certainly not from what I've heard

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but hey that's all that's all really

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super refreshing and it's like I said

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it's at the edge of these issues that I

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care about and I try and bring forward

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on skeptic oh and I just think your

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background is interesting well you guys

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are very well educated Berkeley you know

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Anthony you were just telling us you're

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an attorney Brian you I don't want to go

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into your job but you're professional

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you're working hard on your career so

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it's it's just kind of cool that we're

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gonna get into it in a minute but

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seventh-day adventists immediately

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there's a knee-jerk reaction from people

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about preconceived notions about what

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that religion is some of them are true

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and I'm gonna push you on those and some

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of those you're gonna have to kind of

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handle but isn't it cool that you're

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willing and able to go there and I think

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that's that's terrific so but before we

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go there you know you've given us a

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little bit of a background I started

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asking people kind of this one question

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kind of thing and it's actually two

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questions

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but since skeptic Oh is a show about

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science and spirituality

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I wonder if each of you can share with

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us a profound experience that you had

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either either in science slash reason

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something that you gained through you

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know standard science or learning and

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said wow you know now I really am opened

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up in a way and or a profound spiritual

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experience that really transformed you

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in some way so put me on the spot here

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but there's kind of no pressure

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anything popped in mind about a one of

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those types of experiences today yeah so

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just today I had like in it like a I've

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been finding the language for it

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recently things to skeptic oh thanks to

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Gordon white thanks to Conor have the

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eye

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like this kind of synchronistic journey

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today where last night I had this dream

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of my grandparents home and I'm the

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afternoon delivery boy in my office job

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also and I I was struggling yeah that's

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good struggles real and I was given like

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this one package to deliver to a place

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I've never been to before that took me

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right by my grandparents home it's like

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an hour away from the office and and in

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the dream there were like these birds

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with like bright red and driving up

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there were these vultures with their

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bright red faces and there was just this

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sense of like emotional sentimental but

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also like transcendent like wait - I

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don't know what's going to happen next

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and the house my grandparents have

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passed away and I've been having some

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other synchronicities relating to them

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recently in the last year so and their

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house is in a small gated community and

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I tried to I don't know the code I tried

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to go up and I looked at the call box in

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the directory and our family name was

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still listed so I pressed call and then

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I just hear this like big smiling voice

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of my dad saying hi and I thought that

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it was calling directly to him but it

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was recording that he had set up I don't

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know how long ago and and then nothing

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happened I can get inside and so just I

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called my dad and I haven't talked him

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in several weeks and like the last year

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or so has been like a little tense

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between us and so this feels it it felt

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like a very Universal cosmic scientist

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like talk to your dad and I don't like

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that just happened today so I feel like

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something's still going on with it and I

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kind of want to share it for that reason

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but um but if anyone has any peacock

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synchronicities those also showed up and

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I'd love to connect about those yeah

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we've also had one experience where were

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in Table Mountain on a full moon

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throughout a full moon doing a ritual

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and I what I think was this huge an owl

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or glue like straight in front of a

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mouse I like sort of spirit as you I

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don't know if you can see but there's a

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bunch of elves in my office just a bunch

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of owls um that's kind of mind like

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spirit animal but yeah yes I was

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peacocks yeah as big tube and apart from

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like the kind of hormonal like praise

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music like the moment where it moonless

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their hands in the air which is very

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rare in the Adventist Church yes but I

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feel like a lot of um I don't know it

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feels like a lot of those spiritually

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impactful moments happen outside of your

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recognized religious worldview and a lot

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of Adventists have experience with that

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too where they talk about oh there was

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an angel you know like someone helped

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them when their car broke down in the

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middle of the night and then they

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disappeared and so it feels like there's

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a lot of experience with something that

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happened that shouldn't have happened on

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the edges on the edges the edges and and

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I guess one thing that I want to do with

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our podcast is to learn how to talk

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about those instances more those

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00:12:54,540 --> 00:12:52,400
mystical experiences what about the

273
00:12:59,320 --> 00:12:54,550
other side of that what about the

274
00:13:02,650 --> 00:12:59,330
scientific rational logical side that

275
00:13:05,260 --> 00:13:02,660
that might have propelled you forward or

276
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:05,270
shifted you in a way anything you can

277
00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:07,970
relate to there something that you that

278
00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:12,110
you learned that change the way you view

279
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the world I mean I mean I went to law

280
00:13:26,590 --> 00:13:22,090
school so law school is just founded in

281
00:13:30,370 --> 00:13:26,600
no reason I mean it tells us it is right

282
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:30,380
and and it wants to it wants us to view

283
00:13:36,250 --> 00:13:33,410
the world strictly from that point and

284
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:36,260
on the best days we got to do that I

285
00:13:40,650 --> 00:13:37,690
guess

286
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:40,660
but and that is helpful at different

287
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:43,360
moments like at the beginning of college

288
00:13:48,180 --> 00:13:46,570
I was struggling very much with Lake you

289
00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:48,190
know there has to be some spiritual

290
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:50,470
meaning to the world and yet does it

291
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:53,530
have to be this sexist racist book that

292
00:13:58,350 --> 00:13:55,810
we've inherited or in the last like

293
00:14:01,320 --> 00:13:58,360
millennium where I get that like like

294
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:01,330
deep residences when this is very nerdy

295
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:03,810
I know but when I listen to or I read

296
00:14:12,060 --> 00:14:08,170
like a groundbreaking case I'm like like

297
00:14:15,390 --> 00:14:12,070
RBG when she was like in front of the

298
00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:15,400
tenth circuit was Mary hurricane no but

299
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:17,950
it's the basis of the new movie about

300
00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:22,690
her and she she uses the same logic and

301
00:14:30,180 --> 00:14:26,860
reason that put her and her gender in

302
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:30,190
oppression and she uses that to sort of

303
00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:32,530
wiggle her way out and and pray who is

304
00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:35,230
this who is this Oh Ruth Bader Ginsburg

305
00:14:41,430 --> 00:14:37,120
wench okay before she became a Supreme

306
00:14:42,690 --> 00:14:41,440
Court justice she was arguing a case of

307
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:42,700
the Tenth Circuit and that became

308
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:45,010
precedent and you know how when the

309
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:47,680
system works and it's very slow and it's

310
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:50,890
very rare mm-hmm but when it but you see

311
00:14:57,660 --> 00:14:53,050
you see her doing it and it's like wow

312
00:15:00,150 --> 00:14:57,670
that's that's insane um and that we're

313
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:00,160
supposed to do yeah wiggle out or you

314
00:15:05,730 --> 00:15:01,690
know have a UFO experience that just

315
00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:05,740
takes yeah but in regards to like

316
00:15:11,790 --> 00:15:09,510
science and I don't know the rationale

317
00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:11,800
on our journey

318
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:14,680
Sam Harris and Jordan Pederson has

319
00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:17,710
helped us get us out of a couple of and

320
00:15:22,650 --> 00:15:20,230
then you know these are stepping stones

321
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:22,660
that you move past eventually yesterday

322
00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:24,130
to high school students got disqualified

323
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:27,220
for using Jordan Peterson as a as a son

324
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:30,130
that's no ma'am no we're glad we're past

325
00:15:35,580 --> 00:15:32,770
it but no you know we're lessons to be

326
00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:35,590
learned so you know they helped us in a

327
00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:39,040
couple of summers lumps sure nice

328
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:43,720
one of the goals of this show is to kind

329
00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:46,330
of traverse that path that I think so

330
00:15:50,250 --> 00:15:48,070
many of us

331
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:50,260
not only follow but flip back and forth

332
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:54,130
to and that's the rational logical help

333
00:15:59,600 --> 00:15:55,810
me make this make sense I'm a smart

334
00:16:02,790 --> 00:15:59,610
person I can think through this and the

335
00:16:05,010 --> 00:16:02,800
super natural which so many people are

336
00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:05,020
afraid to go there but we can't explain

337
00:16:11,130 --> 00:16:08,950
our transformative spiritual experiences

338
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:11,140
in the rational that's at least my

339
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:13,330
conclusion that's my rational conclusion

340
00:16:18,660 --> 00:16:15,850
about the irrational so I love that

341
00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:18,670
we've kind of traversed that territory a

342
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:22,000
little bit okay so I said we would talk

343
00:16:26,940 --> 00:16:24,880
about this and that was actually very

344
00:16:31,950 --> 00:16:26,950
excited about this next stuff a dislike

345
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:31,960
to it because I think I think it is

346
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:33,610
tough for people I remember the first

347
00:16:37,410 --> 00:16:35,110
time I talked to Brian and he told me

348
00:16:38,060 --> 00:16:37,420
say 78 I said yeah but that's a cult

349
00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:38,070
right

350
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:41,110
is it because I'd like to be provocative

351
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:43,810
and I like really hard and see what

352
00:16:48,660 --> 00:16:45,970
their comeback was yeah I'd like Brian

353
00:16:51,420 --> 00:16:48,670
immediately because his comeback was

354
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:51,430
yeah some people see it that way but it

355
00:16:57,690 --> 00:16:55,090
really isn't that way and but was open

356
00:17:00,270 --> 00:16:57,700
to understanding why there is that

357
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:00,280
perception and how people might form

358
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:04,170
that perception and take away guy's fact

359
00:17:12,090 --> 00:17:07,210
versus fiction well just just off the

360
00:17:14,430 --> 00:17:12,100
bat we do have a prophetess Alan G white

361
00:17:16,590 --> 00:17:14,440
she's sort of the founder not the

362
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:16,600
founder but she's the spiritual founders

363
00:17:21,810 --> 00:17:19,930
there's a leader yet and I feel always

364
00:17:23,940 --> 00:17:21,820
feel weird saying that to people because

365
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:23,950
it's so weird it's so weird

366
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:27,610
um the other domination as a cult are

367
00:17:32,610 --> 00:17:29,290
the Mormons right they have bad they

368
00:17:33,450 --> 00:17:32,620
have a prophet I think I always been

369
00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:33,460
talking about this

370
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:37,120
I always differentiate we don't have the

371
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:40,210
whole separate book of Adventism I mean

372
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:42,610
she wrote a lot of books but there are

373
00:17:48,030 --> 00:17:45,490
usually just commentaries um Adventist

374
00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:48,040
have really taken to her and her

375
00:17:50,820 --> 00:17:50,020
writings and sort of that leave it a

376
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:50,830
cult about her

377
00:17:56,340 --> 00:17:54,490
it was nice at times um her home

378
00:17:58,910 --> 00:17:56,350
actually her home is here in Northern

379
00:18:00,560 --> 00:17:58,920
California her rest her final home

380
00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:00,570
and I might have passed it actually on

381
00:18:06,350 --> 00:18:04,320
my signal journey yeah and in it's sort

382
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:06,360
of a pilgrimage site for a lot of

383
00:18:10,430 --> 00:18:09,930
Adventist sand her relatives still in

384
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:10,440
there

385
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:12,810
and if you were to ask anyone about it

386
00:18:18,770 --> 00:18:15,090
they would say oh no no no she was just

387
00:18:21,740 --> 00:18:18,780
a you know an inspired woman and they

388
00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:21,750
would if well know and I would just say

389
00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:25,140
that she has a spirit of prophecy we do

390
00:18:28,670 --> 00:18:26,910
have to take a step back though guys cuz

391
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:28,680
a lot of people are coming in cold and

392
00:18:32,090 --> 00:18:30,690
they just really have no idea or they're

393
00:18:34,670 --> 00:18:32,100
these people who've knocked on their

394
00:18:37,580 --> 00:18:34,680
door incessantly kind of thing or you

395
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:37,590
know run it so your Protestant I mean

396
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:40,290
you guys rotten from so you're kind of

397
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:42,090
recognized Christians first of all

398
00:18:46,790 --> 00:18:44,250
you're not kind of outsiders or anything

399
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:46,800
like that and you come from a kind of

400
00:18:53,380 --> 00:18:49,650
conservative bent and you said there was

401
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:53,390
this kind of prophecy upstate New York

402
00:18:58,580 --> 00:18:55,970
mid-1800s everyone's kind of

403
00:19:01,430 --> 00:18:58,590
spirituality is kind of churning out all

404
00:19:03,140 --> 00:19:01,440
these magnificent thoughts and spiritual

405
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:03,150
traditions and one of them that emerges

406
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:06,690
is you all at the seventy and it kind of

407
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:09,050
has a very as a little bit of an

408
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:12,090
apocalyptic feel to it you know

409
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:13,710
Christian all these are threads in

410
00:19:18,410 --> 00:19:15,330
Christianity I'm not like pulling you

411
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:18,420
guys out and saying you know epochal

412
00:19:24,140 --> 00:19:22,650
apocalyptic overtones though yeah yeah

413
00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:24,150
and then so then pick it up from there

414
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:26,070
what other kind of big picture things

415
00:19:32,180 --> 00:19:29,010
with people it's funny that you they

416
00:19:33,770 --> 00:19:32,190
like call so obviously we will reject

417
00:19:35,210 --> 00:19:33,780
the whole coal thing but we are very

418
00:19:37,310 --> 00:19:35,220
proud of the fact that we're peculiar

419
00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:37,320
right so um because we don't go to

420
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:39,120
church on the same day as people do

421
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:40,530
that's why it's in the name seventh-day

422
00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:42,510
Adventist we usually go to church on on

423
00:19:45,770 --> 00:19:43,380
Saturdays

424
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:45,780
the Sabbath starts on Friday night like

425
00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:48,330
you know I could like in a Jewish pages

426
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:50,190
of the front front we have Friday night

427
00:19:57,020 --> 00:19:54,000
seven and it ends on Sabbath on

428
00:19:59,090 --> 00:19:57,030
Saturdays Sunday so it's it's a it's an

429
00:20:01,040 --> 00:19:59,100
old-school biblical Sabbath Friday night

430
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:01,050
to Saturday night and I think something

431
00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:02,640
that'll be very familiar to let's say a

432
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:07,190
Jewish person there's a particular like

433
00:20:12,350 --> 00:20:09,840
sincerity and I'm just wanting to get it

434
00:20:12,820 --> 00:20:12,360
right according to right according to

435
00:20:14,530 --> 00:20:12,830
the by

436
00:20:16,810 --> 00:20:14,540
anything seen in the early roots like

437
00:20:18,340 --> 00:20:16,820
they really wanted to get in that case

438
00:20:21,910 --> 00:20:18,350
they wanted to get the second coming

439
00:20:25,210 --> 00:20:21,920
right and they were starts and there's a

440
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:25,220
prediction of his coming in 1844 and

441
00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:28,010
then I will you know yeah break it you

442
00:20:33,580 --> 00:20:30,500
know breaking news they did they've been

443
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:33,590
in 1844 and that is the start of the

444
00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:35,090
adventist church and it's called the

445
00:20:40,570 --> 00:20:37,310
great disappointment and yeah October

446
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:40,580
22nd 1884 put it in the calendar every

447
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:43,010
Adventist knows this and it really did

448
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:44,810
it's really sad that we do it's really

449
00:20:50,290 --> 00:20:48,530
fun it's fun but that's where it starts

450
00:20:52,660 --> 00:20:50,300
it starts with this ok this realization

451
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:52,670
that God didn't come okay then something

452
00:20:56,110 --> 00:20:53,840
must have happened that day

453
00:20:58,690 --> 00:20:56,120
and so then there's an explanation of

454
00:21:01,420 --> 00:20:58,700
what happened and then a Protestant

455
00:21:03,220 --> 00:21:01,430
Christian denominations or forms out of

456
00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:03,230
that group of people who are adamant

457
00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:05,630
that something very important happened

458
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:07,310
on October 22nd and they can prove it

459
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:09,290
saved by charts and Daniel and

460
00:21:14,770 --> 00:21:11,810
revelation and I don't think a whole lot

461
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:14,780
of Adventist nowadays would like hold to

462
00:21:20,260 --> 00:21:18,650
that well well some would I think

463
00:21:21,730 --> 00:21:20,270
everyone you know knows that that

464
00:21:25,390 --> 00:21:21,740
happened but it doesn't really affect

465
00:21:28,210 --> 00:21:25,400
them and so so how do you guys play

466
00:21:30,820 --> 00:21:28,220
around with that you're kind of

467
00:21:33,610 --> 00:21:30,830
light-hearted and you seem to have this

468
00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:33,620
kind of comfort about talking about some

469
00:21:37,030 --> 00:21:34,910
of these things that a lot of people you

470
00:21:37,780 --> 00:21:37,040
know because you've experienced it your

471
00:21:39,790 --> 00:21:37,790
whole life

472
00:21:41,550 --> 00:21:39,800
kind of snicker and laugh at and you've

473
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:41,560
got some really good attitude about it

474
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:44,090
but there has to be there has to be

475
00:21:49,050 --> 00:21:46,730
another kind of sense of going on there

476
00:21:52,690 --> 00:21:49,060
I mean you guys also have a literalist

477
00:21:54,790 --> 00:21:52,700
interpretation of creation six days guys

478
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:54,800
six days it all happened that I mean

479
00:22:01,030 --> 00:21:56,810
some of this stuff I mean right out of

480
00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:01,040
Bill Maher documentaries you know you

481
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:02,750
could I'm sure that he could go find

482
00:22:08,050 --> 00:22:05,210
some Adventist church fathers who would

483
00:22:12,430 --> 00:22:08,060
just spew this stuff and look totally

484
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:12,440
ridiculous to 90% of people mm-hmm how

485
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:14,090
does how do you balance that how do you

486
00:22:21,250 --> 00:22:19,490
kind of keep those two I think that like

487
00:22:25,540 --> 00:22:21,260
even though that that's been the

488
00:22:27,009 --> 00:22:25,550
tradition for the last 200 years there's

489
00:22:30,129 --> 00:22:27,019
a sense of people

490
00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:30,139
like okay not six days you know like

491
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:31,849
let's be open to science and like

492
00:22:41,849 --> 00:22:35,840
evolution to our audience talking about

493
00:22:43,810 --> 00:22:41,859
like the validity of evolution is is is

494
00:22:47,049 --> 00:22:43,820
groundbreaking for them not as

495
00:22:48,310 --> 00:22:47,059
triggering its triggering and for you

496
00:22:50,469 --> 00:22:48,320
audience talking about the

497
00:22:52,599 --> 00:22:50,479
inconsistencies of evolution might be

498
00:22:57,700 --> 00:22:52,609
the the groundbreaking bit for us to

499
00:22:59,710 --> 00:22:57,710
bring people do that but has it just as

500
00:23:03,249 --> 00:22:59,720
quick aside into Anthony's childhood as

501
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:03,259
a kid my dad bought me the seven

502
00:23:06,489 --> 00:23:05,570
Jellicle like I don't feel bad or

503
00:23:09,369 --> 00:23:06,499
someone gave it to him

504
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:09,379
there were recordings of this man who

505
00:23:14,619 --> 00:23:12,320
was an apologist for creationism and his

506
00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:14,629
name was Kent Hovind I this is probably

507
00:23:17,889 --> 00:23:15,830
familiar you're shaking your head

508
00:23:19,779 --> 00:23:17,899
Keolis he's also in prison right now

509
00:23:21,789 --> 00:23:19,789
he's in prison right now for evading

510
00:23:23,529 --> 00:23:21,799
taxes because he thinks that the

511
00:23:25,899 --> 00:23:23,539
government has he's one of these like

512
00:23:28,389 --> 00:23:25,909
Admiralty law people or he doesn't think

513
00:23:33,789 --> 00:23:28,399
the government Nina has this you know

514
00:23:36,099 --> 00:23:33,799
whatever he now is crazy um but I I grew

515
00:23:38,469 --> 00:23:36,109
up on I watched those on repeat like and

516
00:23:40,239 --> 00:23:38,479
that was my sort of like okay look

517
00:23:42,129 --> 00:23:40,249
evolution I have an answer for

518
00:23:44,169 --> 00:23:42,139
everything and that's very Adventist to

519
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:44,179
have you answer for every it's it's very

520
00:23:49,930 --> 00:23:47,090
conspiratorial though the way applying a

521
00:23:51,909 --> 00:23:49,940
literalist view of the Bible Daniel and

522
00:23:54,999 --> 00:23:51,919
revelation in particular leads to this

523
00:23:58,599 --> 00:23:55,009
very pair of political like a pair

524
00:24:01,269 --> 00:23:58,609
political fever dream of okay the

525
00:24:03,820 --> 00:24:01,279
Catholic papacy is gonna take over the

526
00:24:07,419 --> 00:24:03,830
world and change make everyone worship

527
00:24:10,389 --> 00:24:07,429
on Sunday and in and it's not it's not

528
00:24:14,349 --> 00:24:10,399
it's not it's not if it's when yes

529
00:24:15,580 --> 00:24:14,359
and so it feels that our generation is

530
00:24:20,139 --> 00:24:15,590
like okay that's a little paranoid

531
00:24:23,409 --> 00:24:20,149
that's a little wild and they're we're

532
00:24:25,419 --> 00:24:23,419
slowly like opening up to to other

533
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:25,429
things but there's this tension of like

534
00:24:30,999 --> 00:24:28,369
how much do you open and how much do you

535
00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:31,009
lose with that yeah I feel in our

536
00:24:35,409 --> 00:24:32,960
generation we're gonna put those things

537
00:24:38,529 --> 00:24:35,419
on hold you know the the mark of the

538
00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:38,539
beast and the Sunday law and they sound

539
00:24:41,370 --> 00:24:39,760
a little crimp

540
00:24:43,380 --> 00:24:41,380
sure will believe them sure let's put

541
00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:43,390
them on hold though mm-hmm and how do we

542
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:46,240
solve problems like can women be

543
00:24:53,610 --> 00:24:49,330
ordained pastor or can argue people you

544
00:24:57,540 --> 00:24:53,620
know people and and and I feel that's

545
00:25:00,510 --> 00:24:57,550
where our you know addition to the

546
00:25:01,050 --> 00:25:00,520
conversation has been noticed as of late

547
00:25:04,830 --> 00:25:01,060
right

548
00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:04,840
okay can you get there from here you

549
00:25:10,020 --> 00:25:05,980
know Anthony you mentioned a minute ago

550
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:10,030
that you had listened to my dialogue on

551
00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:12,850
skeptic oh is Christianity worth saving

552
00:25:18,330 --> 00:25:15,790
you know is the seventh-day Adventist

553
00:25:20,670 --> 00:25:18,340
Church worth saving can you get there

554
00:25:25,010 --> 00:25:20,680
from here are you in your attempt to

555
00:25:28,260 --> 00:25:25,020
kind of bring people along maybe

556
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:28,270
compromising too much in terms of the

557
00:25:33,420 --> 00:25:30,910
core issues so here's what's interesting

558
00:25:36,030 --> 00:25:33,430
when you ask it in terms of the seventh

559
00:25:37,950 --> 00:25:36,040
damages Church I think yes it is worth

560
00:25:40,860 --> 00:25:37,960
saving but the seventh-day Adventist

561
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:40,870
Church as an institution is going to

562
00:25:47,580 --> 00:25:43,890
fight that change tooth and nail

563
00:25:50,910 --> 00:25:47,590
probably into its own extinction you

564
00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:50,920
know and that's where things from my

565
00:25:56,490 --> 00:25:52,750
point of view get really interesting

566
00:25:58,890 --> 00:25:56,500
because Bryan and I don't want to speak

567
00:26:01,530 --> 00:25:58,900
for you but we do think that there is a

568
00:26:03,950 --> 00:26:01,540
Christian shift going on in this country

569
00:26:06,450 --> 00:26:03,960
we do think that Christianity

570
00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:06,460
Catholicism sure but Protestant

571
00:26:12,570 --> 00:26:09,310
Christianity is having a an identity

572
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:12,580
crisis and it's going the Christians of

573
00:26:17,970 --> 00:26:14,050
tomorrow are not going to be the

574
00:26:20,250 --> 00:26:17,980
Christians of yesterday and and is the

575
00:26:22,590 --> 00:26:20,260
Adventist Church going to survive that

576
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:22,600
that is a great question is it worth

577
00:26:28,140 --> 00:26:24,610
saving yes is it going to survive it I

578
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:28,150
don't know you know at the very least

579
00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:30,910
the Adventist Church is this global

580
00:26:37,410 --> 00:26:33,940
network this global community of people

581
00:26:39,210 --> 00:26:37,420
who care for each other if you're if

582
00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:39,220
you're Adventist from California and you

583
00:26:43,980 --> 00:26:41,260
get lost in Italy and you find a church

584
00:26:46,170 --> 00:26:43,990
you might find someone who knows someone

585
00:26:49,890 --> 00:26:46,180
who knows someone who knew your parents

586
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:49,900
and they'll help take care of you

587
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:52,490
the church is also very big on

588
00:26:59,790 --> 00:26:56,690
medicine in hospitals and education you

589
00:27:02,530 --> 00:26:59,800
know with you know with other like

590
00:27:07,210 --> 00:27:02,540
unconscious agendas as to what education

591
00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:07,220
is but there is this infrastructure to

592
00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:08,900
decide this is just something I heard

593
00:27:12,190 --> 00:27:10,640
but it's fine

594
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:12,200
other than the Catholic Church the

595
00:27:18,130 --> 00:27:14,210
average church is the largest landowner

596
00:27:21,330 --> 00:27:18,140
like in like denominations that exist

597
00:27:23,770 --> 00:27:21,340
and it it does have this framework of

598
00:27:26,590 --> 00:27:23,780
you know the likkle litter ISM

599
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:26,600
literalism but it's also a framework of

600
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:29,450
community and so I think one of the

601
00:27:36,430 --> 00:27:33,530
things that we want to achieve with our

602
00:27:39,930 --> 00:27:36,440
podcast is to be able to find that sense

603
00:27:44,410 --> 00:27:39,940
of community and realize that that is

604
00:27:47,230 --> 00:27:44,420
worth saving and that even if you take

605
00:27:49,450 --> 00:27:47,240
biblical literalism out of it there are

606
00:27:52,510 --> 00:27:49,460
other narratives of the human experience

607
00:27:54,970 --> 00:27:52,520
that you can plug like Ellen White

608
00:27:58,780 --> 00:27:54,980
fitting into the scene in upstate New

609
00:28:00,940 --> 00:27:58,790
York or mysticism and Gnosticism in the

610
00:28:03,130 --> 00:28:00,950
Bible and realizing that there is still

611
00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:03,140
a spiritual dimension to it that you can

612
00:28:10,150 --> 00:28:06,830
access and interact with without losing

613
00:28:11,740 --> 00:28:10,160
that sense of community and so I don't

614
00:28:14,110 --> 00:28:11,750
know if it's worth saving but I think

615
00:28:15,370 --> 00:28:14,120
it's worth well let me go all Bill Maher

616
00:28:21,180 --> 00:28:15,380
on you mm-hmm

617
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:21,190
you know you're demanding a lot

618
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:25,250
religious people are demanding demanding

619
00:28:31,450 --> 00:28:28,610
a lot and asking a lot and really not

620
00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:31,460
giving back much in return what you're

621
00:28:36,850 --> 00:28:34,130
demanding is is special treatment really

622
00:28:40,780 --> 00:28:36,860
over and over again you're telling us

623
00:28:43,330 --> 00:28:40,790
that you deserve to be treated special

624
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:43,340
in the marketplace of ideas that you

625
00:28:47,049 --> 00:28:45,890
shouldn't be challenged on some of these

626
00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:47,059
beliefs that are highly questionable

627
00:28:54,970 --> 00:28:50,270
that don't don't hold to a worldwide

628
00:28:58,750 --> 00:28:54,980
standard in terms of both morally as

629
00:29:02,260 --> 00:28:58,760
well as scientifically and from multiple

630
00:29:04,210 --> 00:29:02,270
dissing time gonna go on Bill Maher on

631
00:29:05,950 --> 00:29:04,220
you it's not only that it doesn't fit

632
00:29:07,659 --> 00:29:05,960
with one particular

633
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:07,669
of science because you know I can really

634
00:29:14,739 --> 00:29:11,210
get down on science I mean it's the the

635
00:29:18,210 --> 00:29:14,749
the its refuted some from so many

636
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:18,220
different areas that you're asking us to

637
00:29:24,669 --> 00:29:21,710
treat your faith beliefs in a special

638
00:29:27,190 --> 00:29:24,679
way that we just wouldn't accept from

639
00:29:31,379 --> 00:29:27,200
anyone else who stepped into the public

640
00:29:34,180 --> 00:29:31,389
arena and say and said this is true I

641
00:29:40,090 --> 00:29:34,190
don't understand my special treatment

642
00:29:43,629 --> 00:29:40,100
what does that mean well there you're

643
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:43,639
you're asking us to kind of go along

644
00:29:49,090 --> 00:29:47,360
wink and nod with this story that we're

645
00:29:51,159 --> 00:29:49,100
saying on the other hand we know can't

646
00:29:57,460 --> 00:29:51,169
possibly be true we're not you're not

647
00:29:59,619 --> 00:29:57,470
willing to apply the basic scrutiny that

648
00:30:02,320 --> 00:29:59,629
we would and anyone else who makes

649
00:30:04,749 --> 00:30:02,330
similar kind of claims about something

650
00:30:07,149 --> 00:30:04,759
they believe whether it's May night to

651
00:30:09,009 --> 00:30:07,159
go all you know Santa Claus or anything

652
00:30:10,450 --> 00:30:09,019
else we'd say well we really have to

653
00:30:11,859 --> 00:30:10,460
challenge that whether there really is a

654
00:30:14,529 --> 00:30:11,869
Santa Claus but there really is an

655
00:30:18,070 --> 00:30:14,539
Easter Bunny and when we challenge faith

656
00:30:22,180 --> 00:30:18,080
people on those kind of beliefs it gets

657
00:30:24,999 --> 00:30:22,190
nasty really quick no I think that that

658
00:30:27,999 --> 00:30:25,009
that the pressure is being felt I don't

659
00:30:31,509 --> 00:30:28,009
think that that Christianity is coasting

660
00:30:35,009 --> 00:30:31,519
along in any in any capacity that's why

661
00:30:38,409 --> 00:30:35,019
it's it's at a breaking point I think

662
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:38,419
because of that pressure now is it

663
00:30:42,009 --> 00:30:41,570
persecution no no okay everyone calm

664
00:30:44,590 --> 00:30:42,019
down

665
00:30:46,779 --> 00:30:44,600
you know the avengers' are very good at

666
00:30:49,330 --> 00:30:46,789
you know highlighting whoever does it

667
00:30:56,409 --> 00:30:49,340
being persecuted now or not at least not

668
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:56,419
in America yes but I I think that the

669
00:31:04,359 --> 00:30:59,840
pressure is building I think maybe that

670
00:31:07,690 --> 00:31:04,369
was true a few years ago maybe maybe the

671
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:07,700
Christian supremacy was unchallenged for

672
00:31:13,389 --> 00:31:11,330
a long time I don't think I think to

673
00:31:16,299 --> 00:31:13,399
characterize it as as going and

674
00:31:19,540 --> 00:31:16,309
challenged now I look around churches

675
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:19,550
are losing membership left and right

676
00:31:26,260 --> 00:31:21,770
you know maybe you guys are winning you

677
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:26,270
know there's an interesting tension Loma

678
00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:28,490
Linda University we have a friend who's

679
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:30,350
studying medicine there which isn't it's

680
00:31:40,450 --> 00:31:36,170
an Adventist institution and I this is

681
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:40,460
just an illustration but in a lecture

682
00:31:47,260 --> 00:31:43,730
about sexuality they're told about a

683
00:31:50,110 --> 00:31:47,270
study that said the suicide of risks for

684
00:31:56,350 --> 00:31:50,120
transgender people goes down from 20% to

685
00:31:57,790 --> 00:31:56,360
0.05 percent after operation and I was

686
00:32:00,100 --> 00:31:57,800
blown away when my friend just casually

687
00:32:03,450 --> 00:32:00,110
mentioned that because this is something

688
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:03,460
that's being taught inside the the

689
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:07,760
austere institution of medicine but

690
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:10,850
you'll never hear that from a pulpit and

691
00:32:17,980 --> 00:32:13,760
so I feel that that is an interesting

692
00:32:22,330 --> 00:32:17,990
illustration of this interior struggle

693
00:32:24,940 --> 00:32:22,340
yeah and in their real ways not only are

694
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:24,950
outsiders as you would characterize them

695
00:32:29,860 --> 00:32:26,960
maybe putting the pressure on on

696
00:32:32,380 --> 00:32:29,870
institutions of faith but I think now

697
00:32:35,380 --> 00:32:32,390
insiders are saying hey I am not

698
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:35,390
comfortable with my institution doing

699
00:32:38,620 --> 00:32:37,370
harm to people you know this this

700
00:32:42,550 --> 00:32:38,630
statistic right here that Brian

701
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:42,560
mentioned is one of them right I am NOT

702
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:44,720
I don't I don't want those beliefs to be

703
00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:46,880
part of what I call my faith you know

704
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:49,910
and so I think now more than ever you're

705
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:53,810
seeing members even now saying hey I

706
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:55,970
maybe we shouldn't have sexist beliefs

707
00:33:00,940 --> 00:32:57,650
maybe we shouldn't have transphobic

708
00:33:02,650 --> 00:33:00,950
homophobic beliefs and you're seeing up

709
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:02,660
now you're not only seeing this in our

710
00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:04,310
church you're seeing as in the Methodist

711
00:33:07,930 --> 00:33:05,600
Church you see this in the United Church

712
00:33:10,450 --> 00:33:07,940
of Christ they're having conferences

713
00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:10,460
where they are voting on hey are we

714
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:12,310
going to be accepting and firming and

715
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:14,960
some people and within those

716
00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:17,120
denominations don't want to be you know

717
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:19,790
and and and and at least in the

718
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:21,650
Methodist for example they're gonna have

719
00:33:26,050 --> 00:33:24,290
a conference is this the spring and they

720
00:33:29,020 --> 00:33:26,060
might split they might there might be

721
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:29,030
two branches of the Methodist Church and

722
00:33:35,020 --> 00:33:32,690
so this this struggle

723
00:33:36,670 --> 00:33:35,030
is is getting if anything it's

724
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:36,680
intensifying and it's because it's going

725
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:38,330
internally I think it this is a

726
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:41,330
roundabout way of agreeing with you that

727
00:33:48,210 --> 00:33:45,170
this that institutions if they do need

728
00:33:52,150 --> 00:33:48,220
this pressure not so much you know

729
00:33:55,870 --> 00:33:52,160
kneeling to the 95 the 95 theses to the

730
00:33:59,320 --> 00:33:55,880
door but it's being felt on the inside

731
00:34:03,490 --> 00:33:59,330
and I think it's making plenty of people

732
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:03,500
think and it's overdue but I think it's

733
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:05,090
worth pushing for it and that's why we

734
00:34:08,380 --> 00:34:07,850
have a podcast at the moment trying to

735
00:34:10,450 --> 00:34:08,390
do that

736
00:34:12,070 --> 00:34:10,460
no and it's great that you doing and I

737
00:34:16,510 --> 00:34:12,080
really think I took things in the wrong

738
00:34:19,870 --> 00:34:16,520
direction there because number one to me

739
00:34:21,610 --> 00:34:19,880
it's not about the institutions and it

740
00:34:22,870 --> 00:34:21,620
never has been about the institutions

741
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:22,880
and the more we talk about the

742
00:34:27,970 --> 00:34:25,280
institutions the religious institutions

743
00:34:31,210 --> 00:34:27,980
the further we get away from the real

744
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:31,220
questioning spirituality exactly and how

745
00:34:37,420 --> 00:34:34,610
we experience spirituality and people

746
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:37,430
who are interested in that experience

747
00:34:44,410 --> 00:34:41,410
whose lives are driven by understanding

748
00:34:47,790 --> 00:34:44,420
and further expanding that experience

749
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:47,800
like my life is I think often our are

750
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:51,970
bewildered by all this talk about

751
00:34:56,890 --> 00:34:54,650
institutions that just seem to over and

752
00:34:59,590 --> 00:34:56,900
over again get in the way of people

753
00:35:01,630 --> 00:34:59,600
having these experiences so let me

754
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:01,640
rewind a little bit and when I say is

755
00:35:06,490 --> 00:35:04,370
Christianity worth saving I think the

756
00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:06,500
way I originally intended it in that

757
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:08,270
show and I hope the way that it came out

758
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:12,170
is that why is it necessary I mean it's

759
00:35:18,670 --> 00:35:15,170
really cool that if you travel to a

760
00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:18,680
foreign country and get really sick that

761
00:35:24,430 --> 00:35:21,470
you have a network you know that you can

762
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:24,440
kind of tie into that's awesome on a

763
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:27,050
practical level but on a spiritual level

764
00:35:33,970 --> 00:35:30,770
if that is based on some things that are

765
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:33,980
not true in the way that we normally

766
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:37,330
think about things being true have you

767
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:41,440
kind of made some compromises there that

768
00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:45,090
may inhibit or may limit you

769
00:35:54,070 --> 00:35:49,710
or your spiritual growth I struggled

770
00:35:57,070 --> 00:35:54,080
with that question taking a class on

771
00:36:00,800 --> 00:35:57,080
mysticism at Berkeley but this is a very

772
00:36:03,860 --> 00:36:00,810
weird mystical guy who I deeply admire

773
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:03,870
but like oh yeah why don't I stuff study

774
00:36:10,190 --> 00:36:08,250
Sufi ism or pick up Zen Buddhism and the

775
00:36:14,420 --> 00:36:10,200
answer that I came up with was oh

776
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:14,430
because the the Christian the Adventist

777
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:15,960
but Christian the Christian language

778
00:36:21,740 --> 00:36:19,170
that I grew up with is the most

779
00:36:27,350 --> 00:36:21,750
accessible language for me to interact

780
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:27,360
with the spiritual and so in using the

781
00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:30,090
religion as a language to interact with

782
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:32,160
that which is beyond I think that it's

783
00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:35,570
worth interrogating and learning how to

784
00:36:43,670 --> 00:36:41,910
interact challenge and accept I don't

785
00:36:45,890 --> 00:36:43,680
know I'm trying to think of an example I

786
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:45,900
think you're right I Brian in and now I

787
00:36:51,350 --> 00:36:48,090
got a pull in Anthony but this line I

788
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:51,360
love from your show and he knows I'm

789
00:36:55,940 --> 00:36:54,450
gonna do it yeah you know you know you

790
00:36:58,370 --> 00:36:55,950
guys are bantering back and forth in

791
00:37:00,740 --> 00:36:58,380
this one episode and at one point you're

792
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:00,750
kind of spewing all this mystical kind

793
00:37:08,210 --> 00:37:05,850
of stuff there Brian and Anthony comes

794
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:08,220
back and says how do you even call

795
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:11,310
yourself a Christian anymore and I think

796
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:13,310
that that is the edge that is

797
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:16,050
interesting to me you know how do you

798
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:18,930
call yourself a Christian anymore

799
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:21,690
if you go too far off the reservation is

800
00:37:25,790 --> 00:37:23,730
that a concern what did you mean by then

801
00:37:28,730 --> 00:37:25,800
Anthony to what extent you're a lawyer

802
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:28,740
to what extent rank right so that that

803
00:37:34,730 --> 00:37:30,450
is informing it right like there's

804
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:34,740
definitions and and and and and I think

805
00:37:39,130 --> 00:37:37,200
that's where the your first question I

806
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:39,140
think is important to bring back up

807
00:37:45,260 --> 00:37:43,410
science you know a deep profound

808
00:37:48,140 --> 00:37:45,270
experience and based on reason and then

809
00:37:51,260 --> 00:37:48,150
a deep profound experience based in

810
00:37:54,050 --> 00:37:51,270
spirituality and that's that's the trick

811
00:37:58,330 --> 00:37:54,060
right how do you how do you mesh you

812
00:38:01,080 --> 00:37:58,340
know you know your your physical life

813
00:38:05,710 --> 00:38:01,090
your day-to-day life with this higher

814
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:05,720
you know plane that that that we believe

815
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:08,330
exists you know and and where did those

816
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:09,440
two worlds

817
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:12,530
touch and for a lot of people myself

818
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:16,640
included the the Avenue from where those

819
00:38:24,490 --> 00:38:19,520
two worlds touch is is the person of

820
00:38:26,530 --> 00:38:24,500
Jesus right that is how I my physical

821
00:38:34,210 --> 00:38:26,540
being is connected to something beyond

822
00:38:36,730 --> 00:38:34,220
myself and and and for millions of

823
00:38:39,610 --> 00:38:36,740
people and I'm not saying you know that

824
00:38:41,740 --> 00:38:39,620
that because of this one thing we're

825
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:41,750
seeing gets a free pass forever but for

826
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:43,970
millions of people this story of Jesus

827
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:46,570
and this person of Jesus and this idea

828
00:38:56,410 --> 00:38:51,490
has been the path to to this this this

829
00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:56,420
is metaphysical experience and for a lot

830
00:38:59,410 --> 00:38:57,920
of people it's been the only path it's

831
00:39:01,780 --> 00:38:59,420
been it's been the only way they're

832
00:39:04,930 --> 00:39:01,790
being connected to something beyond into

833
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:04,940
and and this and the way I think that

834
00:39:08,650 --> 00:39:06,320
Christiana should be the story of

835
00:39:11,830 --> 00:39:08,660
Christianity preserves because it holds

836
00:39:15,130 --> 00:39:11,840
in it this idea of redemption and I feel

837
00:39:19,390 --> 00:39:15,140
that that is something missing from any

838
00:39:23,980 --> 00:39:19,400
of the other maybe coherent ways of

839
00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:23,990
looking at the world I don't I I look at

840
00:39:29,650 --> 00:39:26,510
other philosophies of being and I don't

841
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:29,660
see a rationale for redemption I don't

842
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:31,520
see a rationale for justice I don't see

843
00:39:36,490 --> 00:39:34,400
a dress or now for striving to be better

844
00:39:38,380 --> 00:39:36,500
even though maybe the world be but

845
00:39:40,690 --> 00:39:38,390
really hold on I got a dip in there cuz

846
00:39:43,390 --> 00:39:40,700
I am Christian say stuff like that all

847
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:43,400
the time and I just don't find it to be

848
00:39:49,030 --> 00:39:46,730
at all true I mean III find it in so

849
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:49,040
many different wisdom traditions that I

850
00:39:53,590 --> 00:39:50,720
just kind of stumble across and don't

851
00:39:55,630 --> 00:39:53,600
ask me to kind of quote chapter and

852
00:39:59,470 --> 00:39:55,640
verse right here but I mean isn't that

853
00:40:01,840 --> 00:39:59,480
just common themes throughout not only

854
00:40:03,490 --> 00:40:01,850
great spiritual traditions but great

855
00:40:05,740 --> 00:40:03,500
literature is this whole idea of

856
00:40:08,260 --> 00:40:05,750
redemption when Christians want to grab

857
00:40:09,770 --> 00:40:08,270
that work how somehow unique no I got

858
00:40:12,650 --> 00:40:09,780
this

859
00:40:15,140 --> 00:40:12,660
- there's something you're right I think

860
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:15,150
there's something Universal and very

861
00:40:21,740 --> 00:40:20,250
very human about it um just I think what

862
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:21,750
Brian was trying to say I think I'm

863
00:40:26,690 --> 00:40:24,390
going to kind of latch on to is that

864
00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:26,700
Christianity is the best articulation of

865
00:40:36,250 --> 00:40:30,540
that not that it's not available

866
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:36,260
you know elsewhere but this idea that

867
00:40:41,860 --> 00:40:40,050
that man needs to be redeemed and I know

868
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:41,870
that Christians don't own that concept

869
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:48,510
but that I feel is a and B I think

870
00:40:52,490 --> 00:40:49,920
because of the fact that it exists in

871
00:40:56,810 --> 00:40:52,500
other cultures proves or not proves but

872
00:41:02,030 --> 00:40:56,820
shows just how II need that is inside of

873
00:41:04,130 --> 00:41:02,040
us this idea to look beyond and yes

874
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:04,140
Christianity the institution hasn't

875
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:07,370
always as never done direct um probably

876
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:11,040
but but the person of Jesus I think if

877
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:13,410
you if you look at the example I think

878
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:16,170
that I think the person of Jesus has a

879
00:41:21,310 --> 00:41:19,290
lesson for it for every person on the

880
00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:21,320
planet even if they heard of him or not

881
00:41:28,850 --> 00:41:24,710
you know and I think I think a person

882
00:41:31,970 --> 00:41:28,860
could have lived with this connected you

883
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:31,980
know to a higher power how did that

884
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:33,450
experience without ever hearing about

885
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:38,610
Jesus but um when they did feel that you

886
00:41:46,810 --> 00:41:42,000
know they experienced not Jesus but they

887
00:41:50,900 --> 00:41:46,820
experienced the essence of it I I feel

888
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:50,910
mmm actually I don't have an articulated

889
00:42:01,730 --> 00:41:57,210
answer that I thought I did but I feel

890
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:01,740
and I'm not putting my meaning or faith

891
00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:07,170
in the primacy of the Jesus story but as

892
00:42:15,410 --> 00:42:11,820
far as a story of redemption the Jesus

893
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:15,420
narrative has a primacy for my lived

894
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:18,570
experience that is the story that I grew

895
00:42:22,910 --> 00:42:21,930
up with and you know imaginal II

896
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:22,920
experience

897
00:42:31,850 --> 00:42:24,960
being read and shown these pictures as a

898
00:42:33,770 --> 00:42:31,860
child and so I find the value and I find

899
00:42:36,890 --> 00:42:33,780
the weight of it to be very subjective

900
00:42:42,530 --> 00:42:36,900
and personal and that's all I'm capable

901
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:42,540
of putting my own oh my spiritual

902
00:42:48,500 --> 00:42:44,610
experience on just that it is mine and

903
00:42:50,510 --> 00:42:48,510
this is my foot in the door I think it's

904
00:42:53,090 --> 00:42:50,520
a pretty cool buddy I mean you nailed on

905
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:53,100
there I mean primacy of your personal

906
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:55,610
experience versus the primacy of the

907
00:43:00,200 --> 00:42:58,050
historical Jesus because you guys have

908
00:43:04,490 --> 00:43:00,210
heard me heard enough these shows and I

909
00:43:07,130 --> 00:43:04,500
kind of rail on the historical Jesus

910
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:07,140
because and I know we've kind of danced

911
00:43:10,190 --> 00:43:08,490
around that and I don't want to dive

912
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:10,200
into that too far because it really

913
00:43:17,810 --> 00:43:14,930
requires a lot of painstaking work but

914
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:17,820
it does come down to that at some point

915
00:43:25,310 --> 00:43:21,810
it does come down to it matters and I

916
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:25,320
think that it also matters side by side

917
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:28,050
with that is the social engineering

918
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:31,890
aspect of Christianity and I as I've

919
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:34,050
told you on this show you know with it I

920
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:35,640
think we can trace that all the way back

921
00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:38,730
but even if you don't want to go all the

922
00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:41,310
way back you can sure see it all over

923
00:43:46,370 --> 00:43:43,680
and our culture and our lives in your

924
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:46,380
young lives in my old life we can see it

925
00:43:54,020 --> 00:43:50,010
over and over again how it is used to

926
00:43:56,660 --> 00:43:54,030
kind of co-opt cultural trends shape

927
00:43:59,630 --> 00:43:56,670
cultural trends and and that's got to be

928
00:44:03,110 --> 00:43:59,640
worrisome because that isn't that has to

929
00:44:05,930 --> 00:44:03,120
get in the way of our genuine spiritual

930
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:05,940
experience because by design it's it's

931
00:44:11,540 --> 00:44:08,400
spiritual engineering and the same time

932
00:44:13,970 --> 00:44:11,550
that it's social engineering do you are

933
00:44:15,950 --> 00:44:13,980
you worried about that how do you think

934
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:15,960
you need to protect yourself against

935
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:18,480
that and that can you do that from

936
00:44:24,380 --> 00:44:21,450
inside of an organization like you're in

937
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:24,390
or does it make it for someone like me

938
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:27,450
on the outside who occasionally goes to

939
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:30,210
church still for various reasons and

940
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:30,770
just

941
00:44:36,910 --> 00:44:32,690
and dumbfounded that I'm even there

942
00:44:39,100 --> 00:44:36,920
because it's ridiculous but you know I I

943
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:39,110
just can't imagine I usually walk out I

944
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:43,010
just can't read it's just so insane and

945
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:45,170
you know why cuz it's the classical

946
00:44:51,790 --> 00:44:49,250
thing they say to three things that you

947
00:44:54,070 --> 00:44:51,800
totally agree with about community about

948
00:44:57,580 --> 00:44:54,080
I love the stuff we're doing to help

949
00:45:00,130 --> 00:44:57,590
people about love your neighbor all the

950
00:45:03,010 --> 00:45:00,140
rest says and then they slip one in

951
00:45:06,070 --> 00:45:03,020
that's totally off the freaking wall you

952
00:45:09,550 --> 00:45:06,080
know about Jesus this and you know it's

953
00:45:13,109 --> 00:45:09,560
just like insane stuff you know so does

954
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:13,119
it make it harder to resist the the

955
00:45:21,540 --> 00:45:16,730
spiritual social engineering from inside

956
00:45:24,820 --> 00:45:21,550
of a tradition like yours I that's the

957
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:24,830
that's a paranoia of mine that and you

958
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:29,119
know the fact that the Bible is has like

959
00:45:33,010 --> 00:45:30,890
beautiful literature and a lot of

960
00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:33,020
entangled meanings but at the same time

961
00:45:40,859 --> 00:45:36,830
as as great dense literature and

962
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:40,869
mythology as it is it was yes it was

963
00:45:44,530 --> 00:45:43,040
ministered throughout the world through

964
00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:44,540
very loving and intentional people but

965
00:45:58,210 --> 00:45:50,390
also by the sword and by the gun and and

966
00:46:00,570 --> 00:45:58,220
so I think a fun tension that I that

967
00:46:05,020 --> 00:46:00,580
helps me get through that is that

968
00:46:09,820 --> 00:46:05,030
Christianity itself started has this

969
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:09,830
very anti imperial movement towards

970
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:13,850
spiritual oh maybe yeah well there there

971
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:17,890
are like Gnostic anti-imperial movements

972
00:46:26,260 --> 00:46:22,880
that are interwoven inside so to know

973
00:46:29,620 --> 00:46:26,270
that some of that is there that that can

974
00:46:32,290 --> 00:46:29,630
be the ethos with which I try to

975
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:32,300
navigate the world my spirituality and

976
00:46:40,030 --> 00:46:34,490
those of the other of others around me

977
00:46:44,030 --> 00:46:40,040
and so for me trying to broaden the

978
00:46:48,310 --> 00:46:44,040
definitions of what spear

979
00:46:51,050 --> 00:46:48,320
shuh ality and religion are to say no

980
00:46:52,460 --> 00:46:51,060
you know like someone having a UFO

981
00:46:55,340 --> 00:46:52,470
encounter or seeing a ghost and then

982
00:47:00,680 --> 00:46:55,350
saying it was a demon or it was an angel

983
00:47:02,930 --> 00:47:00,690
to try to broaden the vocabulary of that

984
00:47:06,410 --> 00:47:02,940
which we can describe the spiritual

985
00:47:10,930 --> 00:47:06,420
experiences and trying to read bring the

986
00:47:14,210 --> 00:47:10,940
excluded into the conversation that's

987
00:47:18,070 --> 00:47:14,220
that's what I'm wrestling with that's

988
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:18,080
how I can try to navigate it mm-hmm and

989
00:47:25,070 --> 00:47:20,850
it's it's tough with other people but

990
00:47:28,550 --> 00:47:25,080
yeah I look at the last two thousand

991
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:28,560
years and Christianity has one like I

992
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:30,450
don't want a quote and now disgraced

993
00:47:35,300 --> 00:47:33,450
comedian but the Christians have one big

994
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:35,310
time like how do you know what year is

995
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:40,050
it you know and I think that Christians

996
00:47:49,060 --> 00:47:44,250
today don't know what to do with that I

997
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:49,070
think we apologize I think and we should

998
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:52,290
but I that was that was what that was

999
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:53,520
what they set out to do they were

1000
00:47:58,400 --> 00:47:55,440
supposed to take over the world right

1001
00:48:01,640 --> 00:47:58,410
that was the Great Commission I think we

1002
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:01,650
did it the wrong way because you know I

1003
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:02,880
mean I don't want to go too far down

1004
00:48:07,730 --> 00:48:05,310
that path because you only need to kind

1005
00:48:09,500 --> 00:48:07,740
of jump in there and say oh it was a

1006
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:09,510
social engineering project from the

1007
00:48:14,750 --> 00:48:12,090
people that's really where that really

1008
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:14,760
shows up is with Constantine at 400 so

1009
00:48:20,300 --> 00:48:16,290
we go back to say you're right and

1010
00:48:23,540 --> 00:48:20,310
that's that's my point by being social

1011
00:48:26,300 --> 00:48:23,550
engineering project that's why it's it's

1012
00:48:28,550 --> 00:48:26,310
on every single continent now including

1013
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:28,560
Antarctica probably said I don't think

1014
00:48:35,540 --> 00:48:32,010
so I mean just a slight twist on that my

1015
00:48:38,390 --> 00:48:35,550
read of it is it was expedient at the

1016
00:48:40,490 --> 00:48:38,400
time it was like [\h__\h] why not if we can

1017
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:40,500
get at wing control everybody with this

1018
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:42,810
thing and we don't have to go to war and

1019
00:48:46,700 --> 00:48:44,160
we don't have to do it with the sword

1020
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:46,710
the just the it was a one-time thing

1021
00:48:52,940 --> 00:48:48,210
they weren't thinking that they're gonna

1022
00:48:57,900 --> 00:48:56,070
just become a tool that later

1023
00:49:00,330 --> 00:48:57,910
generations picked up and said hey let's

1024
00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:00,340
go back it's our go-to and then it got

1025
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,800
this is my read of that history and all

1026
00:49:06,570 --> 00:49:04,480
along there were people who are having

1027
00:49:08,550 --> 00:49:06,580
these genuine spiritual experiences

1028
00:49:12,510 --> 00:49:08,560
we're saying hold on there's something

1029
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:12,520
really here if it's and I it's funny but

1030
00:49:16,350 --> 00:49:14,170
I think there's a lot of parallels with

1031
00:49:19,050 --> 00:49:16,360
the psychedelic movement that we talked

1032
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:19,060
about on this show where you know you

1033
00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:21,610
introduces substance and it's the evil

1034
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:26,160
CIA psyops ORS and hey man maybe

1035
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:28,690
mind-control everybody and maybe use it

1036
00:49:33,030 --> 00:49:30,850
as a truth serum and meanwhile these

1037
00:49:37,410 --> 00:49:33,040
people are going you don't know what you

1038
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:37,420
have here this is my god experience and

1039
00:49:43,410 --> 00:49:40,210
don't know how to I think that is a

1040
00:49:46,170 --> 00:49:43,420
theme that that we see over and over and

1041
00:49:49,380 --> 00:49:46,180
over again which is that the control

1042
00:49:52,650 --> 00:49:49,390
group they're using it for very sinister

1043
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:52,660
kind of but materialistic kind of means

1044
00:49:56,730 --> 00:49:54,370
and there's these other people or having

1045
00:49:58,230 --> 00:49:56,740
these spiritual experiences I think

1046
00:50:00,540 --> 00:49:58,240
there's always going to be that tension

1047
00:50:02,070 --> 00:50:00,550
between all right this is how we're

1048
00:50:03,770 --> 00:50:02,080
going to take over the world and wait a

1049
00:50:06,660 --> 00:50:03,780
minute know this is supposed to be in a

1050
00:50:10,590 --> 00:50:06,670
religion and philosophy of love

1051
00:50:13,350 --> 00:50:10,600
you know and and I think I think the

1052
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:13,360
story of Christianity is is a battle

1053
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:18,370
between those two groups and maybe today

1054
00:50:24,540 --> 00:50:21,330
I'm there's these people want to

1055
00:50:26,490 --> 00:50:24,550
continue this this this this idea of

1056
00:50:29,130 --> 00:50:26,500
control again it's been good to them

1057
00:50:30,810 --> 00:50:29,140
because it's been good to they're the

1058
00:50:31,980 --> 00:50:30,820
people that look like them the people

1059
00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:31,990
that believe like them the people that

1060
00:50:35,190 --> 00:50:33,730
love like them and of course they're

1061
00:50:38,430 --> 00:50:35,200
gonna want to keep that because its life

1062
00:50:41,210 --> 00:50:38,440
has been good to them and you know

1063
00:50:43,890 --> 00:50:41,220
forget all the people they've oppressed

1064
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:43,900
through what was supposed to be a

1065
00:50:49,020 --> 00:50:46,570
redeeming philosophy so I think every

1066
00:50:52,500 --> 00:50:49,030
Christian should be outraged that that

1067
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:52,510
our faith has been used like this it's

1068
00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:55,210
very poignant play like just in the

1069
00:50:59,580 --> 00:50:57,250
narrative of the Bible the you know in

1070
00:51:02,040 --> 00:50:59,590
Genesis we start off with this nomadic

1071
00:51:04,300 --> 00:51:02,050
people that are terrified of cities and

1072
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:04,310
cities like Sodom and Gomorrah

1073
00:51:08,380 --> 00:51:05,810
to be burned or the Tower of Babel

1074
00:51:10,420 --> 00:51:08,390
deserves to be destroyed and then at the

1075
00:51:14,310 --> 00:51:10,430
end of Revelation we can only imagine

1076
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:14,320
God coming by sending us in another city

1077
00:51:24,370 --> 00:51:19,810
and it feels like that tension of

1078
00:51:28,540 --> 00:51:24,380
control hmm is something deeply

1079
00:51:30,820 --> 00:51:28,550
entrenched in a constant and a constant

1080
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:30,830
tension throughout than the narrative of

1081
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:35,330
the Christian story okay guys

1082
00:51:40,750 --> 00:51:38,480
maybe maybe let me take it one more

1083
00:51:43,060 --> 00:51:40,760
place before we before we end it and

1084
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:43,070
that's you know how far are you willing

1085
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:47,210
to go so Brian you threw out the UFO

1086
00:51:54,190 --> 00:51:51,610
term does that does that potentially

1087
00:51:56,700 --> 00:51:54,200
completely change the paradigm for

1088
00:51:59,770 --> 00:51:56,710
Christians I talked about on this show

1089
00:52:01,780 --> 00:51:59,780
near-death experience which a lot of

1090
00:52:03,250 --> 00:52:01,790
people you know one of my complaints is

1091
00:52:04,540 --> 00:52:03,260
that Christians try and then co-opted

1092
00:52:06,100 --> 00:52:04,550
that and say oh that's a Christian

1093
00:52:09,370 --> 00:52:06,110
experience and anyone who doesn't have

1094
00:52:14,740 --> 00:52:09,380
it so that's probably less controversial

1095
00:52:19,510 --> 00:52:14,750
but what developments in this kind of

1096
00:52:22,030 --> 00:52:19,520
fringy spirituality and I'm gonna throw

1097
00:52:24,430 --> 00:52:22,040
the UFO thing in there push the limits

1098
00:52:30,310 --> 00:52:24,440
of your paradigm your Christian

1099
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:30,320
Adventist paradigm I mean I'm the mists

1100
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:33,650
the mystic his whimsical one so I'm open

1101
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:36,650
to all of that but it's a but it's a

1102
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:39,050
it's a tense discussion

1103
00:52:45,130 --> 00:52:42,410
it's a weird tension to bring up in

1104
00:52:47,980 --> 00:52:45,140
conversation because you know at the

1105
00:52:50,470 --> 00:52:47,990
same time people are believing that you

1106
00:52:53,410 --> 00:52:50,480
know God sends angels to the world right

1107
00:52:59,020 --> 00:52:53,420
and then you tell them about John Dee

1108
00:53:00,220 --> 00:52:59,030
summoning angels mmm and having just are

1109
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:00,230
very comfortable with the fact that

1110
00:53:05,860 --> 00:53:04,250
angels and demons exist I don't think

1111
00:53:08,740 --> 00:53:05,870
we're comfortable to play ghosts and

1112
00:53:12,010 --> 00:53:08,750
stuff but yeah ghost is a particularly

1113
00:53:15,420 --> 00:53:12,020
interesting one and that one of the

1114
00:53:17,860 --> 00:53:15,430
things that Adventists at least you know

1115
00:53:20,530 --> 00:53:17,870
are proud of

1116
00:53:24,010 --> 00:53:20,540
that their model of consciousness seems

1117
00:53:25,810 --> 00:53:24,020
to match scientific consensus of you

1118
00:53:27,340 --> 00:53:25,820
know once you die you're asleep and then

1119
00:53:29,410 --> 00:53:27,350
Jesus will wake you up later you don't

1120
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:29,420
have an immortal soul

1121
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:33,050
you'll be woken up in the future and so

1122
00:53:39,250 --> 00:53:36,650
I've met a couple of advocacy I've had

1123
00:53:41,260 --> 00:53:39,260
near-death experiences one was the

1124
00:53:43,330 --> 00:53:41,270
daughter of a pastor and she became a

1125
00:53:44,830 --> 00:53:43,340
doula we're trying to get her or we're

1126
00:53:49,660 --> 00:53:44,840
gonna get her on the show well Anthony

1127
00:53:54,670 --> 00:53:49,670
what does push the edges for you NDE OBE

1128
00:53:58,630 --> 00:53:54,680
magic Chaos magic UFOs I think I think

1129
00:54:00,400 --> 00:53:58,640
that one's faster I think so I I do them

1130
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:00,410
the human consciousness hasn't been

1131
00:54:04,180 --> 00:54:02,810
explored at all I think I think we

1132
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:04,190
haven't even scratched the surface on

1133
00:54:12,100 --> 00:54:08,960
that and there's so much there that I

1134
00:54:15,220 --> 00:54:12,110
think what's fit very neatly in like and

1135
00:54:18,850 --> 00:54:15,230
haven't just like um you know world view

1136
00:54:20,740 --> 00:54:18,860
and sort of like a fringy like

1137
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:20,750
conspiracy theorists worldview I think I

1138
00:54:25,870 --> 00:54:22,000
actually think we have more in common

1139
00:54:28,030 --> 00:54:25,880
then then you would think the different

1140
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:28,040
presuppositions as to how it operates

1141
00:54:34,810 --> 00:54:29,450
yeah

1142
00:54:37,630 --> 00:54:34,820
magic I think I'm sorry so personally I

1143
00:54:40,090 --> 00:54:37,640
am Not Afraid of like the golden and and

1144
00:54:43,980 --> 00:54:40,100
magic and all that stuff I do believe

1145
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:43,990
it's real but magic is magic is

1146
00:54:48,970 --> 00:54:46,610
completely intertwined with Christianity

1147
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:48,980
right I mean in so many ways that it's

1148
00:54:53,230 --> 00:54:51,170
just almost ridiculous that Christians

1149
00:54:55,630 --> 00:54:53,240
don't realize it and that's right

1150
00:54:57,490 --> 00:54:55,640
finding an exciting new ground I feel

1151
00:55:03,430 --> 00:54:57,500
well I don't know if it's exciting it

1152
00:55:06,010 --> 00:55:03,440
just isn't what's you open to the other

1153
00:55:07,210 --> 00:55:06,020
in theory it is but open to that one of

1154
00:55:09,970 --> 00:55:07,220
the things you have is you have all

1155
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:09,980
these Saints running around throughout

1156
00:55:13,870 --> 00:55:11,570
history now this isn't just first

1157
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:13,880
century this goes all the way through

1158
00:55:19,810 --> 00:55:16,640
that are doing some really really

1159
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:19,820
bizarre stuff and what do you do with

1160
00:55:23,860 --> 00:55:21,050
that and what do you do with that when

1161
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:23,870
they do become Saints and are ordained

1162
00:55:27,890 --> 00:55:26,000
by the church maybe not the true

1163
00:55:30,799 --> 00:55:27,900
promises yeah

1164
00:55:32,989 --> 00:55:30,809
I mean just like other Protestants I

1165
00:55:36,579 --> 00:55:32,999
think they would just chalk up Saints

1166
00:55:39,620 --> 00:55:36,589
and all other weirdnesses superstition

1167
00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:39,630
and it's tough to talk about how we have

1168
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:42,569
a prophetess yeah you know swears does

1169
00:55:46,700 --> 00:55:44,130
she communicated with God and with

1170
00:55:49,039 --> 00:55:46,710
angels visited Jupiter and size at a

1171
00:55:51,410 --> 00:55:49,049
Jupiter it means there and and there's

1172
00:55:52,999 --> 00:55:51,420
the room isn't still you know but an

1173
00:55:55,249 --> 00:55:53,009
hour up north from here where we're

1174
00:55:57,859 --> 00:55:55,259
sitting where she had that experience

1175
00:56:02,720 --> 00:55:57,869
that she saw her room filled with angels

1176
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:02,730
and and and nurses from the nearby

1177
00:56:07,069 --> 00:56:04,130
hospital a little bit up the hill

1178
00:56:09,259 --> 00:56:07,079
sometimes at night who could see a glow

1179
00:56:11,559 --> 00:56:09,269
really does anything it's a hundred

1180
00:56:14,269 --> 00:56:11,569
percent thing you take the sort that

1181
00:56:16,789 --> 00:56:14,279
could see a glow from her house so like

1182
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:16,799
so yes Adventist you know very low no of

1183
00:56:21,769 --> 00:56:18,480
course that don't we don't believe that

1184
00:56:25,519 --> 00:56:21,779
and yet we have our prophetess who is

1185
00:56:27,950 --> 00:56:25,529
flirting with with all of this and and I

1186
00:56:29,420 --> 00:56:27,960
see a lot of exciting potential yeah and

1187
00:56:32,539 --> 00:56:29,430
so I think that's one thing that we're

1188
00:56:33,979 --> 00:56:32,549
trying to to talk about I mean babies

1189
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:33,989
I'm surprised to hear and say that he's

1190
00:56:37,309 --> 00:56:35,730
okay with the occult because it feels

1191
00:56:40,940 --> 00:56:37,319
like once we say that out loud

1192
00:56:46,910 --> 00:56:40,950
we lose a lot of credibility from from

1193
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:46,920
our communities and so we define a

1194
00:56:50,509 --> 00:56:48,450
little bit what we mean when we say a

1195
00:56:52,339 --> 00:56:50,519
cult I mean the cult gets hidden I mean

1196
00:56:58,279 --> 00:56:52,349
we're really saying I don't think you're

1197
00:57:02,259 --> 00:56:58,289
embracing anything but off the bat you

1198
00:57:07,609 --> 00:57:02,269
you raise the hackles and suspicions of

1199
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:07,619
your parents of your family of the

1200
00:57:14,420 --> 00:57:10,160
community that you grew up in and so

1201
00:57:18,229 --> 00:57:14,430
we're trying to slowly talk about it or

1202
00:57:21,999 --> 00:57:18,239
open it up for discussion but it's a

1203
00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:22,009
very weird strat strategic strategic

1204
00:57:31,210 --> 00:57:28,710
requiring map to navigate but so that we

1205
00:57:34,670 --> 00:57:31,220
want to like you know get those NDE

1206
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:34,680
survivors who stayed in and left the

1207
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:38,730
church and try to find that within our

1208
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:41,290
own experiences um

1209
00:57:47,330 --> 00:57:45,850
yeah it's tough tough no I think for a

1210
00:57:50,010 --> 00:57:47,340
long time

1211
00:57:51,390 --> 00:57:50,020
reflections of our own spirituality or

1212
00:57:53,810 --> 00:57:51,400
of other people's rich I have been

1213
00:57:56,250 --> 00:57:53,820
filtered through you know the Machine

1214
00:57:59,400 --> 00:57:56,260
and have been you know fed to us every

1215
00:58:01,260 --> 00:57:59,410
Sabbath you know as a cookie cutter

1216
00:58:03,690 --> 00:58:01,270
testimonies right of how they already

1217
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:03,700
bolster what the church already teaches

1218
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:07,690
and I think set free from that and if

1219
00:58:13,340 --> 00:58:09,730
people are allowed to experience their

1220
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:13,350
spirituality the way the way they see

1221
00:58:19,740 --> 00:58:16,650
fit for their lives right and that

1222
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:19,750
includes you know loving who they want

1223
00:58:27,330 --> 00:58:23,680
and and and you're worshiping in the way

1224
00:58:29,970 --> 00:58:27,340
they want and and and if we just could

1225
00:58:31,230 --> 00:58:29,980
convince in my ideal world convinced the

1226
00:58:34,410 --> 00:58:31,240
average church take them a little bit

1227
00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:34,420
more hands-off approach on people's you

1228
00:58:38,310 --> 00:58:35,920
know getting in size people spiritual

1229
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:38,320
because you'd be surprised the level of

1230
00:58:42,420 --> 00:58:40,210
engineering that goes into an Adventist

1231
00:58:44,940 --> 00:58:42,430
Church service you know cuz everything

1232
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:44,950
is choreographed you know there's been

1233
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:46,930
huge splits on whether to have drums in

1234
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:49,690
church I mean this is very silly thing

1235
00:58:54,690 --> 00:58:52,720
the fire is pretty low yeah what we're

1236
00:58:58,440 --> 00:58:54,700
who gets to do gets to deliver the

1237
00:59:01,050 --> 00:58:58,450
sermon you know like and and I do think

1238
00:59:02,940 --> 00:59:01,060
the average church is unique it has a

1239
00:59:05,130 --> 00:59:02,950
very beautiful message to tell the world

1240
00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:05,140
I think it's gone way too far on this

1241
00:59:08,460 --> 00:59:06,910
whole control thing

1242
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:08,470
and I think we should pull back and

1243
00:59:13,980 --> 00:59:10,530
that's what the aberrant test is about

1244
00:59:16,050 --> 00:59:13,990
hopefully guys tell us tell folks where

1245
00:59:18,660 --> 00:59:16,060
they can find the podcast the bad

1246
00:59:20,550 --> 00:59:18,670
dentist and what you guys are up to in

1247
00:59:22,410 --> 00:59:20,560
the near future you kind of tipped your

1248
00:59:25,950 --> 00:59:22,420
hand with an exciting idea of

1249
00:59:28,140 --> 00:59:25,960
interviewing Adventists in de experience

1250
00:59:29,820 --> 00:59:28,150
or what else is coming yeah if you know

1251
00:59:32,970 --> 00:59:29,830
any please get them in touch with us

1252
00:59:37,140 --> 00:59:32,980
also we only know to now it was one

1253
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:37,150
before and to today so feel free to

1254
00:59:42,630 --> 00:59:40,960
follow us at Adventism on Twitter and

1255
00:59:48,510 --> 00:59:42,640
Instagram you can email us at the

1256
00:59:50,970 --> 00:59:48,520
Badminton at gmail.com yeah and then you

1257
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:50,980
can find us through there also you feel

1258
00:59:55,109 --> 00:59:54,130
I'm on Twitter at Brian Nash's I don't

1259
00:59:56,969 --> 00:59:55,119
know if you want to

1260
01:00:05,670 --> 00:59:56,979
finally including that he has weird

1261
01:00:06,930 --> 01:00:05,680
tweets yeah but and we had word some the

1262
01:00:09,839 --> 01:00:06,940
Adventist Church is trying to talk about

1263
01:00:12,900 --> 01:00:09,849
sexuality in a more open and inviting

1264
01:00:17,279 --> 01:00:12,910
way we don't think they go far enough

1265
01:00:19,380 --> 01:00:17,289
laughably filled and so we have a small

1266
01:00:23,729 --> 01:00:19,390
series of Christianity and sexuality

1267
01:00:25,859 --> 01:00:23,739
coming up and so so with with the mantra

1268
01:00:28,469 --> 01:00:25,869
of like hey I know you guys like to

1269
01:00:32,789 --> 01:00:28,479
control things including you know ease

1270
01:00:38,099 --> 01:00:32,799
up a bit yeah thanks this is weird and

1271
01:00:39,569 --> 01:00:38,109
so I mean I think you are there's

1272
01:00:41,489 --> 01:00:39,579
probably a little overlap between

1273
01:00:44,489 --> 01:00:41,499
skeptical audience and the bad with this

1274
01:00:51,509 --> 01:00:44,499
audience but if any of the skeptical

1275
01:00:54,569 --> 01:00:51,519
audience is the overlap yeah audience

1276
01:00:58,319 --> 01:00:54,579
has any Christian friends or relatives

1277
01:01:02,519 --> 01:00:58,329
hopefully we can be like the bridge for

1278
01:01:05,670 --> 01:01:02,529
them and and the this I can't be

1279
01:01:09,150 --> 01:01:05,680
surprised how I've listened to it like a

1280
01:01:12,299 --> 01:01:09,160
number of Alex's podcast my dad would

1281
01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:12,309
love your pilot oh really oh my leg it's

1282
01:01:16,799 --> 01:01:14,559
it's very much in his like vein of

1283
01:01:19,559 --> 01:01:16,809
thinking hopefully you get a bunch of

1284
01:01:22,859 --> 01:01:19,569
Adventist listeners after this we'll see

1285
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:22,869
let us know if that happens I will let

1286
01:01:32,910 --> 01:01:29,440
the world hey guys it's been awesome

1287
01:01:35,489 --> 01:01:32,920
having you on and I appreciate it and I

1288
01:01:37,529 --> 01:01:35,499
look forward to you know checking into

1289
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:37,539
the bed Venice one of the problems going

1290
01:01:41,190 --> 01:01:39,130
on right now is there's so much great

1291
01:01:43,859 --> 01:01:41,200
content and I would include you guys in

1292
01:01:45,539 --> 01:01:43,869
there but I am gonna make sure to peek

1293
01:01:47,099 --> 01:01:45,549
and poke in there especially on some of

1294
01:01:49,709 --> 01:01:47,109
these great episodes that are coming up

1295
01:01:52,319 --> 01:01:49,719
so thanks again so much for joining me

1296
01:01:55,229 --> 01:01:52,329
and skip to go thanks so much thanks for

1297
01:01:56,969 --> 01:01:55,239
having us on really appreciate it thanks

1298
01:01:58,709 --> 01:01:56,979
again to Brian and Anthony for joining

1299
01:02:02,009 --> 01:01:58,719
me today on skeptic oh the one question

1300
01:02:04,950 --> 01:02:02,019
I T up is Christianity worth saving can

1301
01:02:07,739 --> 01:02:04,960
we really brush aside all the tradition

1302
01:02:08,410 --> 01:02:07,749
all the history that's woven into the

1303
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:08,420
fabric

1304
01:02:12,220 --> 01:02:10,970
of our country here in the US into

1305
01:02:15,130 --> 01:02:12,230
Western culture

1306
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:15,140
can we really brush all that aside

1307
01:02:22,030 --> 01:02:18,770
merely because much of it is a social

1308
01:02:24,970 --> 01:02:22,040
engineering control sigh huh I mean what

1309
01:02:27,660 --> 01:02:24,980
if the best parts aren't that what if

1310
01:02:31,890 --> 01:02:27,670
the best parts are as Brian said a

1311
01:02:34,420 --> 01:02:31,900
language for accessing the spiritual I

1312
01:02:36,910 --> 01:02:34,430
don't know on this one I keep bouncing

1313
01:02:39,220 --> 01:02:36,920
back and forth I thought I knew but I

1314
01:02:42,100 --> 01:02:39,230
think I don't know come play with me on

1315
01:02:44,650 --> 01:02:42,110
this one connect skeptical forum love

1316
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:44,660
seeing so many new faces there so many

1317
01:02:50,470 --> 01:02:47,090
bright intelligent brilliant people

1318
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:50,480
there please come join us I do have some

1319
01:02:54,970 --> 01:02:52,850
really good shows coming up I think stay

1320
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:54,980
with me for all of that please tell

1321
01:02:59,350 --> 01:02:56,690
someone who needs to know about this

1322
01:03:01,180 --> 01:02:59,360
show to tune in show them how to

1323
01:03:03,730 --> 01:03:01,190
download it show them how to listen to

1324
01:03:05,470 --> 01:03:03,740
it show him how to use Spotify but

1325
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:05,480
that's gonna do it for this episode of

1326
01:03:10,630 --> 01:03:07,850
skeptic oh do take care and until next

1327
01:03:17,290 --> 01:03:10,640
time bye for now

1328
01:03:28,340 --> 01:03:24,290
[Music]

1329
01:03:30,050 --> 01:03:28,350
so thanks for watching this video and if

1330
01:03:32,930 --> 01:03:30,060
it wasn't really a video but just an

1331
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:32,940
audio stored as a video I apologize but

1332
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:34,530
there's more videos out there as well

1333
01:03:38,270 --> 01:03:36,450
but please check out the skeptic Oh

1334
01:03:39,620 --> 01:03:38,280
website you can see it here we cover a

1335
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:39,630
lot of different stuff you might be

1336
01:03:45,770 --> 01:03:42,480
interested in relating to controversial

1337
01:03:49,190 --> 01:03:45,780
science and spirituality a lot of shows

1338
01:03:52,190 --> 01:03:49,200
up there over 350 of them or so all free

1339
01:03:53,650 --> 01:03:52,200
all available for download so do check